Topic: Does electricity have mass and weight ?
Posted by .
Unregistered


Shocking question !


Posted by Original_Lonley_Guy_
Moderator


Nope.


Posted by F2.Science.Guy
Unregistered


The electron is a class of particle called a "fermion", subclass "lepton". It has mass. At that level, physicists tend to measure mass by "electronvolts", eV, since they measure particle masses in response to electric charge bending their paths. But in normal measure, it's about 10^-30 kg. That's one-millionth-trillionth-trillionth of a kilogram.

When the universe was Big Bang'd into existence, the eventual "quark soup" finally cooled enough that it collapsed into baryons, which were largely protons. Since the universe appears to be electrically neutral, and we have a fairly good estimate of the number of baryons and their ratios... then since there are about 10^80 protons, there must be about 10^80 electrons. That means there is about 10^50 kg of electrons in our visible universe, but they are highly distributed.

When electricity flows, the average number of electrons flowing past for each amp of current is about 10^18 to 10^19. That means when you plug in some 1-amp device, about one-trillionth of a kilogram (10^-12) of mass flows past. How fast? Although the propagation velocity for electric flow is nearly lightspeed, the actual "drift velocity" of something like 10^-4 m/s.

Now we must ask, how long does it take for a 1-amp current to drag 1 kilogram of electrons past your position? If we set your position to be 1 millimeter (10^-3 m) wide, then that trillionth of a kilogram flows past in 1/10th of a second. Hence a kilogram would take 10 trillion seconds, which is over 300 thousand years.


Posted by Original_Lonley_Guy_
Moderator


Hey dumbass, electricity is a wave. It does not have mass, shithead. You are describing electrons which is something different entirely. Fuck you.

(Also, most current is AC. The electrons do not "flow past", they vibrate back and forth)


Posted by F2.Science.Guy
Unregistered


Electricity is the propagation signal that rides the electrons. But that's splitting hairs. It takes electrons to form electricity. For the purpose of the OP's question, my answer was apt.

And vibration implies movement. Sure, we're talking about micrometer scale, but given the size of each electron, that's vast. The electrons MOVE. Look up "drift velocity" (assuming you understand basic calculus).

Also: You really need to be more polite, especially to people who are obviously a lot smarter and better informed than you are. Hint hint.


Posted by Original_Lonley_Guy_
Moderator


F2.Science.Guy said: Electricity is the propagation signal that rides the electrons. But that's splitting hairs. It takes electrons to form electricity. For the purpose of the OP's question, my answer was apt.

­
No it wasn't "apt". It was completely wrong. Fucking idiot.


Posted by teapots.nli
Unregistered


F2.Science.Guy said: The electron is a class of particle called a "fermion", subclass "lepton". It has mass. At that level, physicists tend to measure mass by "electronvolts", eV, since they measure particle masses in response to electric charge bending their paths. But in normal measure, it's about 10^-30 kg. That's one-millionth-trillionth-trillionth of a kilogram.

When the universe was Big Bang'd into existence, the eventual "quark soup" finally cooled enough that it collapsed into baryons, which were largely protons. Since the universe appears to be electrically neutral, and we have a fairly good estimate of the number of baryons and their ratios... then since there are about 10^80 protons, there must be about 10^80 electrons. That means there is about 10^50 kg of electrons in our visible universe, but they are highly distributed.

When electricity flows, the average number of electrons flowing past for each amp of current is about 10^18 to 10^19. That means when you plug in some 1-amp device, about one-trillionth of a kilogram (10^-12) of mass flows past. How fast? Although the propagation velocity for electric flow is nearly lightspeed, the actual "drift velocity" of something like 10^-4 m/s.

Now we must ask, how long does it take for a 1-amp current to drag 1 kilogram of electrons past your position? If we set your position to be 1 millimeter (10^-3 m) wide, then that trillionth of a kilogram flows past in 1/10th of a second. Hence a kilogram would take 10 trillion seconds, which is over 300 thousand years.

:notworthy:  You are easily the best poster here, Mr. the F2 Science Guy


Posted by .
Unregistered


Original_Lonley_Guy_ said: Hey dumbass, electricity is a wave. It does not have mass, shithead. You are describing electrons which is something different entirely. Fuck you.

(Also, most current is AC. The electrons do not "flow past", they vibrate back and forth)
\
:winner:


Posted by .
Unregistered


Check out the brain on Larry!


Posted by physics.boi
Unregistered


EMF doesn't have mass.  The electrons do, but they don't really move.  Only the EMF moves.


Posted by Original_Lonley_Guy_
Moderator


physics.boi said: EMF doesn't have mass.  The electrons do, but they don't really move.  Only the EMF moves.

­
:motorcycle:


Posted by F2.Science.Guy
Unregistered


physics.boi said: The electrons do, but they don't really move.

Yes, they do.
­
Google up "drift velocity". Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_velocity#Numerical_example

The example shows that in a conductor 1mm in diameter and subject to 3A of AC current, the electrons "fluctuate about their initial positions" (i.e. MOVE) about 2 micrometers. Considering how small an electron really is (really just a probability packet; read your Feynman), that's about 4 orders of magnitude larger than the atoms the electrons are associated with, and about 9 orders of magnitude (about 1 billion times) larger than an atomic nucleus, which itself is about 1 to 2 orders of magnitude larger than a proton, which itself is over 1800 times more massive than an electron.

So oh yes, those electrons most assuredly do MOVE. I'm talking about a very large translational movement; over 1 billion times larger than the electron itself. To give you a more concrete idea, if the electron was about the size of a BB, and a proton was about the same size as a bowling ball, then the BB electron would move about the same distance as from the Earth's surface to the moon. Tell me how that's not "movement"; it's well outside the quantum uncertainty of the electron's native position.


Posted by .
Unregistered


F2.Science.Guy said: The electron is a class of particle called a "fermion", subclass "lepton". It has mass. At that level, physicists tend to measure mass by "electronvolts", eV, since they measure particle masses in response to electric charge bending their paths. But in normal measure, it's about 10^-30 kg. That's one-millionth-trillionth-trillionth of a kilogram.

When the universe was Big Bang'd into existence, the eventual "quark soup" finally cooled enough that it collapsed into baryons, which were largely protons. Since the universe appears to be electrically neutral, and we have a fairly good estimate of the number of baryons and their ratios... then since there are about 10^80 protons, there must be about 10^80 electrons. That means there is about 10^50 kg of electrons in our visible universe, but they are highly distributed.

When electricity flows, the average number of electrons flowing past for each amp of current is about 10^18 to 10^19. That means when you plug in some 1-amp device, about one-trillionth of a kilogram (10^-12) of mass flows past. How fast? Although the propagation velocity for electric flow is nearly lightspeed, the actual "drift velocity" of something like 10^-4 m/s.

Now we must ask, how long does it take for a 1-amp current to drag 1 kilogram of electrons past your position? If we set your position to be 1 millimeter (10^-3 m) wide, then that trillionth of a kilogram flows past in 1/10th of a second. Hence a kilogram would take 10 trillion seconds, which is over 300 thousand years.

Conjecture.


Posted by F2.Science.Guy
Unregistered


I was wondering if physics.boi wants to rebut.


Posted by .
Unregistered


Since the electrons are already on the conductor, the mass of the conductor should not change due to electron flow.


Posted by .
Unregistered


F2.Science.Guy said: physicists tend to measure mass by "electronvolts", eV, since they measure particle masses in response to electric charge bending their paths.

electric charge bends paths due to energy attraction, not the gravity due to mass.

:rolleyes:


Posted by .
Unregistered


Of course. It's energy. E = mc^2


Posted by teapots.nli
Unregistered


F2.Science.Guy said: I was wondering if physics.boi wants to rebut.

He is too busy shopping for mitten head-wear :frown:

:mittens:
:milton:


Posted by F2.Science.Guy
Unregistered


. said: Since the electrons are already on the conductor, the mass of the conductor should not change due to electron flow.

­True, but since the electrons flow, there's a mass flow. Hence mass passes your position as I indicated before.

I could wiggle a 1-kilogram weight back and forth in front of you and achieve a mass flow. It's the same mass, true. It's still a flow.


Posted by F2.Science.Guy
Unregistered


. said: electric charge bends paths due to energy attraction, not the gravity due to mass.

:rolleyes:

­Yes, that's why I used the following English words strung together to express meaning:

"electric charge bending their paths"

Since I said the electric charge bent their paths, that implies that electric force did the work, not gravity and not mass per se.


Posted by .
Unregistered


F2.Science.Guy said:
. said: Since the electrons are already on the conductor, the mass of the conductor should not change due to electron flow.

­True, but since the electrons flow, there's a mass flow. Hence mass passes your position as I indicated before.

I could wiggle a 1-kilogram weight back and forth in front of you and achieve a mass flow. It's the same mass, true. It's still a flow.

The problem is, the original question is a bit ambiguous. If by electricity the op means the layman's definition of electron flow through a conductor, then no, it does not have any additional mass.


Posted by magbas.nli
Unregistered


Electricity comes out of the wall.


Posted by Original_Lonley_Guy_
Moderator


This guy is still posting his bullshit?

Dude, fuck off. You don't know shit about physics.


Posted by F2.Science.Guy
Unregistered


Original_Lonley_Guy_ said: This guy is still posting his bullshit?

Dude, fuck off. You don't know shit about physics.

­Then choose any particular sentence and post a rebuttal about it.

I note you're avoiding doing that now. You simply aren't in command of the facts, and I have to constantly correct you.

I suggest leaving this thread to the people with real educations in physics and chemistry.

Some friendly advice.


Posted by F2.Science.Guy
Unregistered


magbas.nli said: Electricity comes out of the wall.

­Yes, and it goes back into the wall, but its vigor is still left within your residence as work, light and heat.



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