I didn't say that you couldn't see the Egyptian Museum from the spot where Lara was nabbed (which is on El Tahrir Blvd, before the roundabout). I said that the spot shown in the footage when you hear her say "Stop!" is much closer to the Museum (it is, in fact, on Meret Basha Blvd, near the metro sign). Here is a map:
Here, this interactive map might help. The banner is beneath the legend "Wall of Martyrs". The spot in the footage where she yells "Stop!" is near the camera logo on the "Tanks" legend. As you can see, the two spots are quite a distance apart.
Posted 7/14/2011 11:22 pm : Edited 7/14/2011 11:26 pm
I can agree with this outlook. The government really has no business at all "deciding for us" what constitutes freedom of speech or freedom of expression. CBS has the right, of course, to do what they can to keep their professionals from being publicly humiliated but the government doesn't have the right to help them keep something like this under wraps... not at the expense of the freedom of the press or freedom of speech or the public's right to know. Suppressing evidence of this nature is paramount to manipulating the public's opinion concerning major foreign policy which is... pretty serious. Even if you believe in what the government hopes to accomplish, if they are hiding evidence that would sway public opinion against their policies... yea... that would be really shady and it could be considered very illegal.
(Tellguy response here)
We don't have a "free press" in the United States -- it's called the government/media complex. They only report on what they want to report on because the media is owned by, and is a tool for, people close to people in government. In fact, swaying public opinion and dictating policy is exactly what they are doing and this has been going on for a while although it's more flagrant now than ever. What's happened with the Lara Logan story isn't unique. The same thing happens with many stories going on all the time. The one's they don't want you to know about are either under-reported or not reported at all. Also, this whole thing isn't about "sensitivity" or caring about Lara Logan. They don't give a flying fuck what happened to her -- she's just a casualty. It's them and their mentality that put her there in the first place, drumming up American public support for the fucking "Arab Spring." They're playing us for fools and those of you sobbing over Lara Logan better wake up and smell this story for what it really is!
I noticed that, too. I believe that the audio track of Lara shouting "Stop!" was extracted from footage CBS had from the beginning of the attack, and was dubbed over the video footage of the crowd that you are referring to. In fact, CBS had other reporters in the square that night, so that particular footage might not even be related to Lara's attack. Perhaps CBS didn't want to air footage that clearly shows the attackers, for legal reasons or otherwise, or perhaps the video footage from the moment of the attack doesn't show anything of interest (hard to believe that, though).
If you study the footage closely at the point when Lara shouts "Stop!"(look at the lamp posts and buildings in the background, and then at pictures taken of the same street around the same time but without the crowds; I would post all of this if I had those priveleges), and assume that Lara is ahead of the camera man in the direction the camera is pointing, then that puts Lara fairly close to the museum. Indeed, at that point, she would probably have been within clear site of the soldiers on the tanks. There is no way the attack would be just starting in that location, especially since Lara and CBS indicate that the attack started way back at the circle, shortly after the camera battery had to be replaced. Thus, Lara says in her interview:
"As the cameraman, Richard Butler, was swapping out a battery, Egyptian colleagues who were accompanying the camera crew heard men nearby talking about wanting to take Ms. Logan’s pants off. She said: “Our local people with us said, ‘We’ve gotta get out of here.’ That was literally the moment the mob set on me.”"
Hold on, first of all, I am missing why you are saying you are assuming Lara is ahead of the camera man. I am hearing her voice as if comming from behind. (kind of from 5 o'clock) Also, I have heard they had 2 cameras.
You are saying: There is no way the attack would be just starting in that location, especially since Lara and CBS indicate that the attack started way back at the circle,--------------
But I am hearing her voice from the circle. Am I really over 80 as I claimed earlier today?
Yes, they had two cameras, but only one was operational when Lara was nabbed (the battery on the main unit was being replaced). If the footage was of Lara being pulled into the crowd as the 60 Minutes report implies, why would the camera man be looking AWAY from her at that point, especially when, right before that, he was filming Lara saying "Bahaa is not happy here."
That means that the camera man was positioned between that street lamp and the next one in sequence (going away from the museum). If you compare the frame to this daytime photo, this means that the camera man was necessarily close to the metro sign, and hence far away from the circle - way too far to hear anyone shout anything from there over a noisy crowd (and yet, we hear Lara's voice quite clearly, thus implying she was nearby):
Graphic footage of terrible events need not be available everywhere I am simply saying it should be allowed somewhere.
The pressure to suppress any actual footage of this event will be applied to all media outlets, regardless of category. It is clear from the comments of the concerned posters here that they don't want this material to show up anywhere. Period. They are looking for blanket censorship on account of the potential harm to the individual involved.
Posted 7/15/2011 12:30 am
yes I am and also I am thinking that CBS could have tossed that video footage in from earlier and it had nothing to do with Lara's attack. What better way to keep people from finding anything if they are all looking in the wrong direction. they had shot about an hour of footage before the attack and unsure how much during and after. If they want to keep the attack even more vague who says that they would not toss in some footage that looks like it might have something to do with the attack but in reality was early or later or maybe not even that night. It sales the point that they hauled her off towards the museum and that would also help sale the short attack and not a longer more brutal attack.
It could have been Max holding the 2nd camera. Note he is not anywhere in the shots. He could be a few meters away from them. Since Lara was not reporting anymore, why would he keep the camera focused on her? He could have easily been surveying what is around. Yes, you would expect him to hear what Lara said into the microphone (?) and turn around, but is that absolute? No.
I would say that if anything can make you think that Lara is ahead of the camera it would be the fact that there appears to be some comotion filmed ahead. However, this would still contraindicate your theory of her scream being recorded at a different time. (That is, they are pulling her into the crowd, he is filming, and she screams "Stop!" into the microphone on her chest! (Thus it sounds much closer to the camera than it really is. And this also explains why her voice is the only one heard).
However, I still think the real action was behind the camera, because of the motion of the camera. To the right and down. But this is not a sure thing either -- we do not know what stopped his filming -- maybe he just got punched, or something.
As far as the distances are concerned, remember we are only given partial footages, so we cannot really see when they zoom something up or not.
Note also that the direction of the camera is originally about 20-30 gegrees off the eye level. This means that he is even further away from the heads he is filming.
Finally, there is something else. I will not say it right now. I will torture you with suspence. Just kidding.
Posted 7/15/2011 12:32 am
I am sure most media outlets have been told if something pops up to delete the page it is on and let CBS know and they will be rewarded. Kinda of a you scratch our backs and we shall scratch yours.
Posted 7/15/2011 12:38 am
Lara did not have a mic on her the mic was on the camera. If you look at the video at no time does she have one in her hand or on her body. No mic wires seen on any of the frames and no mic in the hand so that means the mic was on the camera.
I guess you are right. I kind of thought I saw it (2:43) on her left side. I assumed it was a white mini microphone, because I did not see anything on her right side. But this could be a left sided pocket. Althoug it is unusual to have any additional suture lines on the collar, even at the pocket level.
Yes, CBS said that Max was operating the smaller camera - not sure what your point is there.
Frankly, it doesn't really matter exactly where Lara was with respect to the camera, or even whether the camera was filming her at the time or not, because the fact is, she would have to be relatively close to the camera man in any event, and the camera man was close to the metro sign. Are you saying that Max filmed Lara saying "Bahaa is not happy here", then ran ahead to the metro sign (somehow cutting through the densely packed crowd with blinding speed), at the very time their guide is saying that they gotta get out of there, but left the audio feed to Lara's microphone running? Even assuming that she was wearing a wireless microphone, those things don't transmit very far, you know.
Moreover, if you actually watch the footage in question, it is clearly NOT zoomed. To the contrary, it is clear that the camera man is shooting from the middle of a bustling crowd. Indeed, you can see the heads and bodies of the people around him. I'm not sure where you are getting the angle from, either. If you watch the footage, the angle is generally straight ahead and at eye level, an angle that is clearly impossible to capture by zooming in from a distance away. Indeed, at the end of the clip, the camera shot moves down to the ground, and you can see the waists of the people directly in front of the camera man.
Scenario : A group of street thugs, taking advantage of the chaos following the victory over Mubarak, stalks and attacks a blonde lady wandering around Tahrir square with some clueless guys.
Method: Assault/Rape. Indifferent to recording or distribution.
Cannot rule it out. Images will probably never surface, if they exist.
Scenario : Secret police wish to punish a well-known reporter and make her forever ineffective among male mideast leaders.
Method: Enable/record assault/rape AND distribute it immediately to as many people as possible in as many ways as possible.
Rule it out. This clearly didn't happen but this is what should have happened if the security forces were involved and wanted to take her down.
Scenario : Secret police wish to punish a well-known reporter and to be able to influence her future reporting.
Method 1: Enable/record assault/rape. Do not distribute. Make sure target knows attack is recorded.
Cannot rule it out.
Method 2 : Abduct reporter at Tahrir square, transport to detention cells maintained near Cairo museum during protests.
During her visit give her a demonstration of some authentic female Egyptian dissident interrogation techniques
and provide some recreation for the security team members. Record. Do not distribute. Make sure target knows attack is recorded.
This one folds into the Temoris statement about that night and provides justification for the
"You can't imagine what they did to me" comment but makes the entire CBS story false. Highly unlikely.
The absence of purported images has a number of people doubting whether the events stated actually occurred. It really is remarkable. One would expect that images circulating quietly among the Egyptian-speaking diaspora would begin to leak out to the more cosmopolitan set, particularly the young guys. Eventually someone outside of the cultural circle would get hold of a copy and pass it to their friends. But there is nothing. The simplest way to get nothing this late in the game is for there to have been nothing to start with. That points to the opportunistic thugs scenario. It fits the data.
Posted 7/15/2011 2:40 am
love the break down and the sound thoughts behind them but I think that there might be a few more. we need to list these so that we have all possible Scenarios and then when we are referring to say Scenario 1 then we will know which one.
Posted 7/15/2011 2:42 am
Hey moot if you check those two links I posted early it sounded like they claimed it was undercover secret police and it was like 20 to 50 of them and it was the same group that had grabbed her on her previous visit.
Posted 7/15/2011 2:44 am
Also Lara was not the only tall blonde attacked that night from what I posted early another blonde female also describes not only her but a few other women that were egyptian were also attacked by the crowd as they tried to walk in it and the blonde said it was about 1 hour after the president stepped down which was about the time Lara arrived at the square.