When Henry VIII seized all the Church lands in a prearranged quarrel to that purpose he destroyed the entire social welfare system of the Church that those lands supported; orphanages , old folks homes, hospitals...It looks like hundreds of thousands perished when the Church lands were seized and sold off and their inhabitants were ejected into the laneways of what had heretofore been "merry old England", to starve to death and die of exposure.
Posted 2/8/2011 9:12 am
The British weren't trying to exterminate the Irish as Hitler was the Jews, or the Turks the Armenians or as in Rwanda.
They were in thrall to theories of market fundamentalism at the time. The idea that the invisible hand of the market would produce the best possible outcome for everyone and it was wrong to interfere with the way the market operated in any way as it would produce a worse outcome.
That's why food was being exported from Ireland even as people starved, because the English could pay more. Its why they interfered with relief efforts. They genuinely believed they were doing the right thing.
Of course they managed to have their little experiment in market forces because, unlike if the English had been starving, starvation and unrest in Ireland didn't threaten their power.
Its worthwhile learning the consequences of market fundamentalism when people preach it as a solution today.
I partially disagree with that; the invading English weren't just any English; they were Cromwell's New Model Army, the Ulstermen of today, the very paradigm of British Israelitism. They saw themselves (seriously) as one of the Lost Tribes Of Israel, they saw the Irish, the native Indians whoever was Philistines, the Roman Catholic Church as Babylon and they believed they had a divine biblical mandate to exterminate the Irish and take their lands. The cold economic science and Malthusianism was/is a kind of rational window dressing on that tribal religiosity..
"They took their name from a prophecy in the Book of Daniel that four ancient monarchies (Assyrian, Persian, Macedonian, and Roman) would precede Christ's return. They also referred to the year 1666 and its relationship to the biblical Number of the Beast indicating the end of earthly rule by carnal human beings. They were one of a number of nonconformist dissenting groups that emerged around this time."
No, Francis I had sailed up and down the British coast for several summers with a huge navy bearing 70,000 soldiers looking for a bridgehead, preferably to link up with the Scots, sometime French allies.
Henry needed a navy. The English had no navy. So he picked a quarrel with the Pope over a marriage that the church was begging him to allow them to annul. He refused because he wanted a divorce to precipitate a breach with Rome and thus allow him to seize all the Church lands. Those were 1/3 of the lands in England. He immediately sold them to buy himself a navy...
Posted 2/8/2011 9:54 am
England governed Ireland for what she deemed her own interest, making her calculations on the gross balance of her trade ledgers, and leaving moral obligations aside, as if right and wrong had been blotted out of the statute book of the Universe." Dennis Clark, an Irish-American historian, claimed that the famine was "the culmination of generations of neglect, misrule and repression. It was an epic of English colonial cruelty and inadequacy. For the landless cabin dwellers it meant emigration or extinction..
Sure, we can all agree with the second statement, edited for tone, and as for the first, so the fuck what? Like all empires it was founded on a hard headed desire to advance a nation's status in the world by whatever means. It foundered on a tide of decadent moral gush about "right and wrong" in international relations, and here we are today listening to aggressive wars being justified with a lot of sickening pseudo humanitarian bullshit. It's demagogic and intellectually dishonest to project our milquetoast values onto the past like Dennis Clark here.
I knew it wouldnt be long until someone mentioned modern Ireland in this thread.
Things have improved a little since the Good Friday Agreement. And there is a lot less terrorism, which is good. Most of the terrorists/para-militaries are now entrenched in gangsterism and organised crime. No longer fighting for a political cause.
England has abused Ireland since day one, much like Israel abuse the Palestinians. Sickening if you ask me.
Its no surprise that the Republicans feel like they have a lot on common with the people of Palestine.
And sadly the Loyalists(supporters of UK in NI) support zionism.