It seems to me that in the early days after February 11 when the postings of firehouse Nick and parts one and two most here dismiss them as fabrications and fantasy. Over the course of the past year and with the unfortunate attacks on other female journalists, the Dutch tourist and articles posted by Egyptian women has made these posted videos and their similarities of being dragged into the crowd, stripped naked, beaten and raped reality. The US State Department the Egyptians and governments around the globe know exactly how toxic this footage is to the Arab spring and the movement in the middle East and around the world for global Jahad. Even the most hard-core New York Times reading liberal could not stand to view a few minutes of this video nevertheless an hour or more. For those hard-core porn rape viewers deep down inside they know that after it's all done the participants grab a shower and a beer. Try this out try and read part two over and over again for an hour, and then see how you feel about the cheering crowd of men, if this were a dog surrounded being beaten and tortured even if you dislike dogs you would have nothing but hate for the men in the crowd. The reason the footage has not surfaced is that all parties involved that includes Lara, CBS, the US government and the Egyptians realize just how powerful this footage is. Fact or fantasy you decide.
Fighting or surrendering in this case one and the same, fighting not in the traditional sense of going toe to toe and inflicting damage on your opponent, fighting the urge to scream for it only enraged the mob, fighting the urge to resist pull away which only made them pull on her harder, fighting the urge to scratch and bite because it only brings more pain and violence. Knowing that she was most vulnerable on the ground when her attackers lifted her to her feet to move her she fought to stay up knowing that going down to the ground again she would only suffer more and prolonged attacks. Surrendering her dignity to the brutality of the crowd would have been a fight within herself, thoughts of her family and children may have given her the strength and determination to remain conscious and on her feet and the will to endure the attacks. Asian philosophy says that the rigid branch snaps under the weight of the snow but the branch that bends the weight of the snow eventually falls away. Surrender or fight for survival under the weight of the snow.
I sure hope this thread does not go quietly into the night. Yes we have to put up with the trolls, and Nazis, porn and that picture of Anderson Cooper's ass trying to get a headline. All that aside I have learned so much by the posting of articles I would have never found on the Internet myself. If this thread dies the conversation dies good or bad it still needs to be talked about, it's not about the pictures or the conspiracy or even Lara's privacy it's more than that. I am now acutely aware of the plight of female journalists and Muslim women suffering the brutality of Islamic law. Lara has said her best work is yet to come only time will tell but history will show by breaking her silence she put a spotlight on the worldwide brutality of women our Lara is not a victim she survived it was a blessing she speaks about it we are enlightened. I don't know if Lara will ever read these words but in the off chance that someone she knows does tell her not to stop, there'll always be the trolls and the perverts but women worldwide especially Muslim women need her voice. I like to think some day in the future that history will show that on February 11 the mob picked on the wrong journalist.
I got to thinking this morning about her pants I re-watched the interviews last night before I went to bed. The pants, I kept thinking about the pants and what she had said. Every time Lara does another interview more and more of the truth seems to creep out. In the WWDC interview she states she was naked and she was attacked for a longer period of time which follows some of the so-called witnesses stories. In the CBS interview she states her pants were shredded and in the 60 min. overtime she states the nurse held up her pants and they were shredded. What if her pants were removed (yes violently) then tossed aside picked up by the crowd of street thugs and criminals looking for something valuable, money, cell phone, and like a pack of wild dogs fighting over scraps the pants were shredded then tossed aside and found later by the military or her crew. She assumes that the pants were shredded off her this may not be the case. I believe at the time of her CBS interview great care was taken by CBS to protect her reputation and her integrity. As she receives more support from the public and women's groups and other female journalists, she finds it easier to talk about. I'm sure there were heated discussions between Lara her husband and the heads of CBS in her hospital room over the statement which was released to the public, it may have taken days to come to some agreement.
Here are some points I think need to be added to this investigation
1. The first thing that all victims of sexual assault and rape want to do is scrub their bodies clean again. I have no doubt that after returning to the hotel Lara wanted to scrub the filth from her body, clean hair, clean clothing were a priority.
2. Knowing how the Islamic world handles rape cases preserving DNA was not a priority.
3. What level of sedation was she in, out cold or mildly sedated to calm her hysteria.
4. Entering the hospital back in the US she was seen by a rape trauma nurse someone who daily see's victims of sexual assault and rape. Her comments of "oh my God oh my God" speak volumes as to the degree of the attack.
5. Lara said the nurse bagged her pants to collect evidence (DNA).
6. CBS new the story would soon leak out to say nothing about a sexual assault against her husband wished would only give the story more scrutiny than they wanted.
7. Her willingness to talk about the attack was problematic CBS and how would it affect her career.
8. The 60 min. interview had the exact opposite effect than they wanted it raised more questions than it answered details of inadequate security and possible cell phone pictures, hand raping but no penetration.
9. What if after things settle down in Egypt pictures surface, what if it proves some witness statements were true, what if the DNA proved penetration by multiple attackers, and how many attackers could her career survive.
She's weathered the storm very well for now but only time will tell.
Why is it that decent Moslems won't confront a radical cleric but they will follow the teachings of the prophet that condones rape and murder and they're proud of this? Yes it's true that early passages in the Koran are very peaceful but have been set aside by clerics who believe that non-Muslims are less human. Yes I believe they're are good Muslims in this world but that they are few and far between and their voices are very rarely heard. Should we believe that Lara's silence and the medias global political correctness puts more wives and daughters at risk around the world by men that feel their religion gives them the right.
Hi all it's been a while like you I'm still looking for that needle in a haystack that ties this story together in my search I type in (Muslim attacks on women) I found pages of of attacks from around the globe. I also was curious why some journalists had harsh criticisms of Lara's unwillingness to come forth with details of her attackers that evening, as a trained war reporter her observations were less than stellar. The posted article by Debbie Schlussel shed light on the medias cover-up and downplay of this uniquely Muslim issue. The YouTube video by PatCandell is equally scathing in its analysis Of the Way, Muslim men view non-Muslim and white when. I found myself more interested in the haystack instead of that elusive needle, more important was why there was no outcry from all the good apologetic Muslims? they condone this behavior in silence, isn't it strange how afraid they are of their so-called religion of peace that if you step outside the guidelines death is all you can look forward to.
What she wants or not wants is not easy for us to know. She is in a paradoxial situation. On the one hand she wants to talk about it i think (in a therapeutic way and from a journalistic ethical standpoint) but on the other side yes she wants it to go away. Concerning that she and CBS wanted to hush it all up: It was due to being attacked that brutally. I really think if she would have been abused by these NOrthern Alliance fighters back in Afghanistan she would not have had so many problems like now. It was somehint altogether different that happened to her and it was logical to somehow wish it away. And yes of course it`s hypocrisy and not journalism at all to think that way but it´s understandable nonetheless. I have to think how i would have coped with something like this. I have to think how any here would have coped with something like this and i think we all would have been in a far worse state than she is now. We would have been really wrecks and simply not able to work like she does.
Here's some food for thought in her near miss in Afghanistan she says in the article she had given a lot of thought to what might happen if she were to the rape that article was written I believe in 02 before she was married and had children. As a single girl in school or working her way up in the media she may have been raped or molested by a boss or a boyfriend or worse a family member she encountered on the way up. One out of every six women in America is rape at some point in their life, had Lara experienced and survived a rape in her past? I was puzzled while watching her 60 min. interview how unaffected she seemed to be and how thankful she was there were no broken bones. She seemed to be on the mend and putting this behind her, maybe this was something she had experienced in her past and survived once before. I know some very strong executive women who have been attacked by their bosses were supervisors and were reluctant to speak up for fear that all they work for would be taken from them. We sometimes forget we all have a past and most of the time we are stronger for it.
I'm glad to see you can read and spell better than me the fact that you cared enought to take time to comment tells me you are still paying attention, but can you read between the lines or is all you know is that CBS MSM bullshit?
I like when people under estimated me.
let me say this about your so-called in depth discussion and debulking of the dark carvern blog the threads on pages 129 through 132 don't prove the thing it seems that you are the only person in 370 pages that before going to bed can e-mail an eyewitness and get them to admit their testimony was hearsay or false. On page 227 and 228 is a blip from and unsigned source that proves even less, you couldn't convict dark cavern of a parking ticket with this week evidence. Before I call someone a liar there has to be overwhelming evidence to the contrary, just because people have recanted their stories do to outside pressure does not make them and unreliable source. People that night saw things in different time frames that doesn't mean what they saw didn't happen, and a fantasy. The retelling of eyewitness accounts may be somewhat inaccurate in spots but are based in the truth. So before you go off on another rant about how you have debunked all others testimony take into consideration the fact that not everyone believes you and your special relationships with witness. Personally I think you are the less interested in the truth and more interested in trying to prove a negative.
Here's something interesting I've come across in the dark cavern blog a guy by the handle of Clifford 69 was running the show for some reason he's now been banned, he had a contact in Egypt a guy by the name of khaldum who was providing him and intel he had a YouTube page that's now been deleted, but if that's not enough he also was a friend of The1944Michael he's the guy that posted parts one and two and if you look at his page you'll see he also has khaldum as a friend how's that a coincidence. On page 17 of the dark cavern blog Clifford 69 posts an urgent message to shut down the blog he states his buddy khaldum life has been threatened. I was thinking of how you would threaten people to make them stop talking threatening their life is one way, and then I thought about my children in this new interconnected Internet world they can't live without the Internet, we now use it as a threat or punishment taking away something they love and can't live without. I think that they were threatened with banishment from the Internet. I also thought about the videos and cell phone camera picks no one but a few have been able to see, and then I thought of the brutal attack and how degrading it must've been. Then I thought of Lara lying in a hospital bed beaten and humiliated and embarrassed. And then she gets a call from the president of the United States of America, I'm very certain he was concerned for her well-being and may have asked her if there was anything she needed the only reply I could think of would be to make sure the pictures were never seen, I'm certain those pictures exist and I believe they are in a file right next to the ones of Osama bin Laden face.
I don't think that Nick a.k.a. the fat boy was making up some kind of rape fantasy. It seems a bit odd that so many people on different blogs tell a similar story ,I went back and read some of the threads on the dark cavern, and Lara Logan and investigation into the truth blogs. The opening thread on the dark cavern blog tells a similar version as what's told in part two, there is a young lady whose brother-in-law worked as a contractor in Egypt returned to England with essentially the same story, on the last page a similar version appears. I find it strange that people say no eye witnesses have come forward yet several people have told similar versions of the same story, it just may be possible that these reports are based in fact and not in fantasy. I guess it's just easier to marginalize the horrific and brutal nature of this attack if you can chastise the reporters.
I read this article on paragraph 7 it states that the Arab League is near the US Embassy. I remember reading a thread from a United States Marine Corps Sgt. that threat stated she was brought to the embassy after the attack and seen by medical personnel there. Not being from Cairo whether the US Embassy was anywhere near the scene of the attack was in question. Part one details the alleged route of the mob and a location of the attack somewhere near the Arab League. I still feel that the United States State Department has their fingerprints all over this, I also remember reading a press release that said that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, was sending a team of investigators Cairo to look into the attack. Can anyone expand on this angle one way or the other? And does anyone know what time her flight home last Cairo?
Let's re-edit this without the PC filters.
The camera battery went down at that point she felt someone grab her ass the fixer overheard the crowd and told her it was time to move without warning she was pulled into the crowd with Ray, hanging on her sleeve the crowd between her and Ray and eventually Ray was torn apart from her with only a sleeve of and her hand jacket in his hand. The crowd dragging her along beating her groping her and yelling Jew Jew Jew. The crowd Found an out of the way spot and pulled her to the ground she looked up and saw them taking pictures of her with her shirt up around her neck and her bra ripped open. The crowd tore her pants to shreds and ripped off her underwear . Pulling at her arms and legs she thought she would be ripped apart, Hans everywhere in front and back raping her everywhere, the more she struggled the harder they pulled her. She surrendered to the rape to save her life and endured that fate and all it implies until her rescue, how is that for editing do you think CBS would offer me a job.
This is not to take away from Lara Logan's strength, courage and determination of this woman would we view her any different than if she was shot in the head and spent months recuperating in the hospital. If she was a man and was attacked and beaten by 200 men and lived to tell the tale she would be a hero. Because this story has been whitewashed, downplayed, made politically correct, makes it undigested and that's what keeps it alive.
That being said I've taken some time and go on over Lara's interview again, and again picked up on a lot that you said in earlier pages and a few things I think maybe important I've made some notations check them out for yourselves.
2.52 the battery goes dead and if you look at the scene carefully she abruptly turns around as to confront someone as if they grabbing her ass take a look at her face as she turns around its very disturbed.
3.10 interviewer explains only the fixer understood what the crowd was saying, didn't the drivers speak Arabic.
3.42 she says she was pulled into the crowd.
4.10 at this point she still speaking in the background, but an editing overdubbed by the interview if you listen carefully at 4.10 you can hear her clearly say the word ew. shred of clothing on her body, if she had anything left to her pShe's trying to tell a fact of what ened but Westerns up session with political correctness and the willingness not to offend anyone made this fact too harsh to report.
4.20 she states at this point she lost the fixer and the drivers.
4.59 she's explaining how her pants and underwear were being ripped off(shredded) this point leads the viewer to believe there was still some ants how did they get her underwear off?
5.03 she explains looking up and then taking pictures with their cell phones take note. To the movement of her head up and to the left this may indicate that at that point she was not standing on her feet.
5.18 editors cut away to the interviewer restarting the story and time frame by indicating that Ray stated he only came out of the crowd with the sleeve of jacket and was torn away. This leads to viewer to believe the tearing off of her close was done while she was hanging on to Ray. Question if she lost Ray within the first 30 seconds to a minute of her being surrounded by the crowd that would have left more time for her to be sexually assaulted .
6.13 She states at this point there tearing her body apart limbs stretched. Question, would that not be consistent with the rape scenario.
7.32 she states there inside of her everywhere and to save her life the she surrenders to the rape.
HI all just sitting here thinking about this post and wondering if there's not a ring of truth in it. The resignation of Pres. Mubarak was just announced that evening if the story of Lara's attack was breaking news the next morning it would have labeled the revolutionaries as Muslim extremists, animals and rapists and would have looked upon the brutal attack, and condemned the revolution, just look at all the bad press the revolutionaries got as the story started to leak out of Cairo. Maybe they sat upon the story to see whether the revolution would stick. I also think the call from the president to console her might have had a footnote asking her and her bosses to play this one down as not to make her attack more newsworthy than the revolution. Lara herself in a report after being thrown out of the country days before stated that she was followed by the secret police and was held and accused of being a spy. Some reports say that other women in the crowd were attacked that evening fights were started possibly trying to incite the crowd to riot and giving the military and excuse to stop it. I believe the reason they dragged her off and away from the main body of the protest was to rape her and may have eventually kill her thus inciting the Western media against the protesters, if this attack would've taken place in the main square I believe it would've been stopped earlier than it was. Criminals do not like to commit crimes in front of decent people.
Hi guys I think it's time to dive into the end of the pool the last few pages have raised some new questions. I read over the Rue 89 article some things in the article made me think how they seem to draw some parallels to part two (both articles had three witnesses), the first thing to catch my eye was both articles said a soldier during the rescue had been hit in the nuts, I then wondered if the photographs of the guy with the big nuts was that soldier, I don't think so but it made for good graphics. I also noticed one of the witnessed the part number two mentioned things like ligament damage and trauma,(medical terms). I also noticed the one witness said he came upon her earlier in the evening the doctor in the Rue 89 article mentioned he had seen her earlier and then left a few minutes later. I don't know about you but when the doctor tells me it's going to be a few minutes enter a time warp, his focus on other patients makes him lose track of time, by the picture in the article he looks pretty busy to me, I guess that's why they put clocks in operating rooms. The other statement that made me wonder was that one of the witnesses in part two new that she had been taken back to the four seasons hotel, someone close to the military might note that, you think, one witness statement from part two said he would not intervene, but he made up only that he was not in the military, there were too many criminals and he would be murdered. The doctor and the two soldiers entered the crowd to effect a rescue surrounded by 200 thugs they've got bigger balls than the guy on the table, or were they in the crowd and just covering their asses. In the doctor's words (I witnessed the attack) maybe the arrival of troops cause them to intervene knowing help had arrived. I found it curious how readily the Rue 89 article was embraced, and help part two was dismissed yet it has similarities, I guess you have to have a press card for someone to take you seriously. I also reviewed. The tape of the press club awards I find that Lara Logan's acceptance speech seemed fragmented she had just been announced to all her colleagues not as the woman who covered the events in Tahir square but she was the story, the one thing she does not want to be noted for, the other recipient from Al Jazeera recounted her of adoption, imprisonment and torture may be they should have a new category, women reporters that put themselves in extreme danger and live to tell the tale.
Okay guys I'm glad to see that someone still thinking out there. The questions I posed did not use the word ( all) yet it seemed that all took offense, just as that night in February(some) Egyptians attack Lara Logan and (some) Egyptians raped her and (some) Egyptians saved her. My questions are just that questions but it seems it's more important to some people that the story be told there way. My father told me there is no such thing as a stupid question only stupid answers if you believe I have it wrong let me know your truth, but mind you know stupid answers. There is always many sides to every story Lara's side, the mobs side, the crew's side, the armies side, the State Department's side, CBS's side, and the truth? And Egyptian cleric said of a woman going out in public without a headscarf or in proper cover was like putting raw meat outside your door and being surprised the cats eat it, so to this cleric women are no more than meat and men cannot control themselves and they are no more than animals interesting side, that puts Lara at fault. I find that thinking barbaric and from the ( middle ages) and was pointed out to me as (nonsense) (just my opinion) I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or win when a fight. By posing questions that provoke thought may lead to the truth or more questions. The fact that CBS's story so sidesteps the magnitude and of the attack with word games leads to more questions. Yesterday Mubarek appeared in court in Egypt TV footage showed a group of supporters attacking a group of protesters, the clip showed two men one with a stick and one with his belt off using it as a wip remind you of anything. The way the attack and the rescue took place questions the time factor. Every story every blog says there was 20 soldiers and a group of women some say six some say four pretty accurate no one can tell you what time it was. They speculate between 25 and 30 min. finding one let alone 20 soldiers in that crowd and 25 to 30 min. is questionable let alone language problem location problem and the time to fight their way in poses another question. I'm sure that someone will ridicule me for that question have at it, And here's something for you to think about go back and review her interview check out the picture of Ray he doesn't look like a 25 year old hard-core bodyguard looks like he's got quite a bit of gray hair. But I really did appreciate the picture of the frat house toilet must've been a hell of a party.
I've been following this blog for quite a while, for some time I thought it was going off the rails and I was afraid that the people did not wanted this story to see the light of day were winning. Some of you are imprest by Ms. Logan's demeanor I would have not expected anything less from any professional. I keep wondering about a few things, why it is that no one has heard from anyone in her crew except for her producer and why is it that anyone says that he witnessed the attack that evening is jumped on ridiculed and denounced. CBS has spun this story and controls it to this day I would not be surprised if some of the bloggers are being paid by them, just right something negative and see how fast your jumped on. I also would not be surprised if some of the heart felt apologies of the Egyptian people were not written by the same people. The trashing of the eyewitnesses without pictures is puzzling how did we relate a story before the invention of film and digital cameras and the Internet. The media itself relies on eyewitnesses but as we all know without pictures you are labeled a liar or a pervert, the media giveth and the media taketh away. I find it strange that people are more interested in the actual attack than the fact that the media and governments have been able to control the story, and every time I read a blog from some bonehead I have to wonder how he earns his money. I also wonder why the tabloids haven't ran with this story, a revolution, a rape, a rescue, a cover-up, a beautiful blonde international reporter, and not a word. I watched some of Lara Logan's reports on 60 min. she asked the tough questions she gave us the truth how does she feel that those standards don't apply to her. I can understand that she does not want to be known as the reporter that got raped in Egypt but it makes me wonder if this story she has covered are as accurate and truthful or is it just some more media spin.